Last month I wrote a post about and it set off a heated discussion about stereotypes and identity.
It was picked up by a Spanish digg type site called and generated a discussion there. A couple of people asked in the comments if I would write about what I thought of the stereotypes of Spain and Spanish people I mentioned.
No problem!
Thanks to everybody that left comments, both here and on Menéame, some of which were very creative.
First of all, though, a couple of answers to questions that arose on the Meneame discussion:
Of course I don t think all my Spanish friends are like that.
It is sometimes made with a little onion as well as the potatoes and in some towns in the north they make interesting double tortillas with a tasty filling. A good great tortilla is one of the staples of every Spanish mother s cooking inventory and everybody s mum always makes the tastiest one. Tortilla is definitely very tasty and worth getting to know properly.
Tortilla is not something that people eat every day though, or at every meal, and not everybody likes it.
There are big differences between the north of Spain, the south and Mediterranean coast. In the north and many parts of the Spanish countryside which are inland, in winter it can get very, very cold. Here in Murcia, it s sunny, clear blue skies just about all day every day, all year round.
Clouds rarely appear. Rain appears even less frequently. From May until November, it s very hot and it will try and rain a couple of times during the summer.
Between November and February it can feel like it s cold but it s relative: if you hop on a flight from rainy Manchester and turn up in the middle of January in Murcia, your body thermometer will think it s very warm. There are, indeed, many beautiful beaches in Spain. You shouldn t think this is all of Spain, however, not even half.
There are hundreds thousands of beautiful places to visit all over Spain, whether it s sunny, raining or covered with snow. And it s even more fun if you get to know the people, traditions and history of the places you visit.
Bullfighting is half sport, half art, half barbarity, depending on who you ask. Bullfights are normally held in ferias or festival periods. It is incredibly complicated and understanding bullfighting (whether you re Spanish or foreign) requires time.
The moves a lot of money. It reaches across social classes. It s been around for ages and is not going anywhere.
Many Spanish people compare it to the recently banned English sport of fox-hunting. Apart from animal rights issues, I don t think that s a good comparison. On a cultural level, I think bullfighting is more analagous to cricket, a thought I will explain in another post.
Not everybody goes to the bulls, fewer people understand it and the only people who fight bulls are the professional bullfighters. (this assumes we re talking about proper bullfights and not smaller bulls in the many village ferias);
English people think all Spanish girls know how to dance flamenco: this is because to the untrained eye it s very easy to move around a bit and look like you re dancing flamenco with a few swirls of your hands and hips. There are many different types of flamenco (the dance most people associate with the flamenco stereotype is called sevillanas ). Flamenco is a whole sub-culture, composed of song, dance and instrumentals, sometimes all together and sometimes individually.
It s an art. It has more followers in the south of the country where it originates from. There is traditional flamenco and there are new waves of pop-flamenco.
There are many different rhythms within flamenco and most traditional flamenco songs, lyrics, dances and instrumental solos fit into one of those subtypes. It s incredibly difficult to tell the difference between the subtypes if you re not practiced. If you want to see an example of flamenco, check out .
Salsa was created in New York and the influences were all Caribbean and Latin American.
No, of course not. Everybody enjoys a good one though. It s very difficult to make well.
There are many variants on what a foreigner might think is paella but which is actually a different type of rice dish.
The most popular drinks at meals are wine, beer and water. Here in Murcia there is a great Murcian version made with peaches and sugar.
Some Spanish food is tapas. The idea of tapas being free is mainly a southern thing (especially in places like Granada, where you buy a beer and basically eat for free if you go to the right places). There are hundreds of different types of tapas.
Apart from tapas, there is some fantastic Spanish food which is nothing to do with tapas. Every region has its own specialities. Spain could easily be a gourmet s paradise but don t limit your ideas of Spanish food to tapas and paella.
I have yet to see anybody wearing a big hat (apart from English tourists on tourist beaches and in airport waiting lounges);
In the south in the summer (and in many other parts of the country), it s very, very hot and between about one o clock and seven or eight in the evening, there s not much point in trying to do anything, espcially after lunch: it s too hot. Life shifts a few hours at night and takes a break during the day.
The idea that everybody does or should speak English is a myth. Waiters in many countries know enough to bring you a beer and, on the other end of the jobs scale, people working in multinational companies tend to have very good English if their job involves communicating with English speakers. Learning a language properly takes years of continuous effort and practice.
It s just the way it is most of the time. This item needs its own post.
Yes, lots and lots. If you like coffee, you ll like Spain. In Murcia, they have great coffees.
In Madrid, the coffees aren t as good as in Murcia.
Not a clue, unless they ve lived in England and taken a liking to tea.
Most things related to timetable differences are related to the weather and heat in the summer. The traditional Spanish timetable is: morning until 14h00, midday/lunchtime 14h00-17h00, afternoon from 17h00 until 21h00, followed by dinner.
Yes they are, compared to English pints, but this is absolutely the best way to drink them in the summer when it s very hot or as a refreshing slurp in winter. Imagine trying to enjoy a few pints of stout in 45ºC heat, or mixing Guiness with seafood.
There is also some great Spanish music. Check out for an idea of what s popular in Spanish music now.
"It’s incredibly difficult to tell the difference between the subtypes if you’re not practiced.
If you want to see an example of flamenco, check out my friend Pablo in his grupo rociero. "
Flamenco and rociero groups (sevillanas) are separate and distinct, and never the twain do mix. The costumes are even different.
Hey, you ever been to Spain? on November 12th, 2006 at 9:44 pm
Hi Estela,
Hmm, don t know about the epitome of ignorance but
1) I m probably one of the people not just in Spain but on the planet who knows least about music. I consider it a success if I can remember the name of the singer or the title of a song;
2) Ignorance and stereotypes are about lack of knowledge, not which country you re from.
In my group of friends here in Murcia (which is a very open and knowledgeable group of people) Pablo is the resident flamenco/rociero/guitar expert, although some others are quite into it as well, and most of them would find it very difficult to explain the difference;
3) It is always, of course, fascinating to learn more about just about anything, so if you would like to write a little article explaining the differences then I will publish it with pleasure and everybody will learn some more.
And, yes, of course I ve been to Spain. I live here.
on December 11th, 2006 at 12:25 am
Matthew, the word rociero refers to the Virgen del Rocío and always means sevillanas , which is a separate and distinct musical form from flamenco. Trust no one who claims to be a flamenco/rociero/guitar expert because they re taking advantage of your innocence.
To hear flamenco you might enjoy José Mercé, Arcángel, Miguel Poveda, Mayte Martín.
If that goes down well, you could move on to Luis Zambo, Fernando de la Morena, Borrico, Terremoto, Paquera, Fernanda de Utrera, Antonio Mairena, Manolo Caracol, Camarón, Pansequito, Chocolate Flamenco is as far removed from sevillanas as it is from the Mexican hat dance.
In Murcia you ve got the world s most important flamenco festival every year the first part of August in La Unión. If you go, look for me in the front row with the rest of the journalists and be sure to say hi 
.
on December 31st, 2006 at 3:25 pm
Is it really true that some Spanish people hate Flamenco? I suppose that statistically, it s likely but I ve not met any. Please forgive me for also recommending the group itran who play flamenco regularly in Barcelona.
They are awesome, also very nice people and they played at my wedding. And yes, one of them is my wife s cousin but really, they re very good. If you re in Barcelona, try to see them.
As to the noisy thing: I think there s often a different attitude among the Spanish when it comes to conversation. It can be infuriating when you re talking to someone and a third party butts in and starts talking about something else completely. Almost as bad as when you re trying to eat lunch with four guys playing the futbolin next to your head as loud as they possibly can.
But we get used to it. What s more, it gives us the opportunity to practise that most Spanish of rhetorical conversations: the complaint. on January 3rd, 2007 at 3:10 am
Yes, believe you me, many of us Spaniards hate flamenco Well, or may be that is not the best way to put it We simply do not identify with that loud, overemotional expression of raw feelings and wish it had not been portrayed abroad as the most representative Spanish music.
There are many other musical traditions in Spain which have nothing to do with Andalucia and are the products of a different kind of temperament.
Sorry, people from Andalucía, don t take offence, I have nothing against you, call me desaborio if you want, you are fun and all, but each time I hear flamenco on the radio I change the station as fast as you can say Jack Robinson.
And, Tom, if you want to find people who are at least indifferent to flamenco or don t feel Andalusian music should represent them abroad come to the north of Spain.
There are many ways of being and/or feeling Spanish. To give you an easy analogy, thinking of flamenco as the most representative Spanish music style, would be similar to considering the bag-pipe the quintessential British instrument.
A guy from Galicia (but I could also be from León, Asturias, Navarra, Aragón, Catalonia, Castile, Valencia etc).
on January 3rd, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Hmm well, I live in Catalonia, my wife and her family are Catalan and their best family friends are from Navarra. None of them hates Flamenco - probably because it s good music. What this comes down to is not just taste but artistic merit.
You betray a lot with your words that loud, overemotional expression of raw feelings . To me, that sounds like a rather stuffy attitude. Flamenco s about passion and yes it can be rather flamboyant but compare it to the dirge-like Sardana, for example, and it s not hard to see why it has become so popular around the world.
Visca el flamenc! on January 3rd, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Carlos, times are quickly changing. Years ago, before Barcelona hosted the Olympics, flamenco was anathema to Catalonians.
But suddenly Spain became the center of the world, and the poorly-informed global population that arrived to see athletic feats and flamenco, was unable to grasp that Catalonia had a language and culture of its own.
Soon, sevillanas schools started popping up everywhere, then flamenco dance schools Catalonian flamenco singers - Mayte Martín, Miguel Poveda, Duquende, Ginesa Ortega - began to record and make a name for themselves. Today, January 3rd, 2007, Miguel Poveda is the number one name in flamenco, something that would have been unthinkable a very short time ago.
Catalonian Carmen Amaya is the most revered flamenco dancer of all time, and guitarists Pedro Sierra, Chicuelo o Cañizares among others, have made their respective marks.
Numerous peñas, flamenco dance, cante and guitar contests and the festivals of Nou Barris and Ciutat Vella demonstrate that flamenco is quite fashionable in Catalonia, just as it is in much of the rest of the world.
Feliz año flamenco to everyone,
on January 4th, 2007 at 2:53 am
There is quite a large Andalusian community in Catalonia (or should I say Catalano-Andalusian?
), so what you are saying comes as no surprise to anyone who knows Spain. However, allow me to take with a pinch of salt your suggestion that in slightly over a decade Catalans at large have passed from considering it, in your own words, anathema, to flamencoing away like there is no tomorrow.
I still hold that considering Spain as a whole the land of flamenco does more harm than good, in as much as it implies ignoring the existence of many other forms of popular music and dance.
I will even go as far as to claim that most expressions of Spanish folklore have nothing to do with Andalusia or flamenco. Whoever thinks otherwise has a lot to learn about Spain. Long live the jota, chotis, muiñeira, arriesku, corri corri, sardana, paso doble, foliada, goyesca, charrada, xiriindelu, perindongo, danza de Ibio, seguidilla, parranda, cordón, bolero, isa, rigodón, contradanza and a long etcetera.
And, of course, long live flamenco, but not casting an ominous shadow over all the rest. on January 4th, 2007 at 3:06 am
allow me to take with a pinch of salt your suggestion that in slightly over a decade Catalans at large have passed from considering it, in your own words, anathema, to flamencoing away like there is no tomorrow.
Hold the salt, no exaggeration in what I said.
I was performing flamenco in and around Catalonia throughout the changeover and watched it take place. In 1985 when I needed people for the group I had no choice but to go to Madrid or the south. After 92 you could find sevillanas dancers, but no one did flamenco.
Now there s plenty to choose from in Barcelona and Badalona, even Tarragona, and audiences include plenty of locals.
Your list of folk music says it all. Flamenco ceased to be folk art about 150 years ago when the first cafés cantantes opened their doors and individual expression replaced group efforts.
Thirty people dancing sardana in a circle is not comparable to one flamenco dancer por soleá.
on January 4th, 2007 at 12:45 pm
I understand your wanting to defend your profession and an artistic expression you hold very close to your heart. You deserve a reprimand for your last statement, though
What do you mean by not comparable ?
I m now going to be extremely cheeky and say you are right, throwing a tantrum on a stage and getting paid for it is not comparable to a group of people peacefully sharing a special moment, reinforcing their sense of community and perpetuating a tradition the roots of which can be traced as far back as Ancient Greece.
I still insist that if you held an opinion poll you would find that a large number of Spaniards resent the fact that they are stereotypically associated with a tradition which is not theirs.
I m glad that your experience in Barcelona has been one of growth and personal fulfilment (I m not being flippant here), but I would dare say that you would have experienced something very similar if instead of a flamenco dancer you had been a teacher of salsa, mambo and cumbia, also foreign to autochtonous Catalonian/Spanish culture.
No, no, and no We do not all dance flamenco, we don t wear sombreros or polka dresses, we do not majoritarily support bullfighting, we do not sleep the siesta, we are not lazy etc, etc, etc. The image of our country that has been promoted abroad (to attract tourism?), in many cases associated with the most exotic aspects of Andalusia, is now backfiring on us to the point that it is a factor behind reivindicative Regional Nationalism This monolithic image of Spain is a threat to our unity, not a factor contributing to it.
Many people in peripheral regions want to shed it off by claiming their own identity, not least of all entrepreneurs, aware of the fact that a country of fiesta and siesta does not sell well abroad when it comes to textiles and industrial machinery. If the reality of Spain was better known abroad, part of the problem would disappear. Stereotypical perceptions are a blight on this country.
on January 4th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
What do you mean by not comparable ?
say you are right, throwing a tantrum on a
special moment, reinforcing their sense of
Ancient Greece.
I don’t understand your reference to “tantrum”, I’m merely explaining an artform I’ve written about extensively in specialized media, basing my observations not only on personal experience, but on the highest authorities in Spanish ethnomusicology such as Cristina Cruces, Gerhard Steingress, William Washabaugh, José Luis Navarro and many other serious academics.
It has nothing to do with “my guys are better than your guys”. Folk music is indeed NOT comparable to stylized or individualized forms such as flamenco. Contemporary ethnomusicologists describe folk music as “música de uso”, a parcipitative activity carried out collectively, and not requiring an audience.
When you sing the Happy Birthday song at a friend’s party, you are not thinking about how successfully you are communicating your message to a potential audience, but rather the song is an end in itself, and you are most likely singing it with other people. This is “música de uso”.
If English tourists gather at the steps of the cathedral to watch locals dance a sardana, this is a modern invention.
The sardana (and other folk music) was danced for centuries with no need of an audience, and no money being exchanged. There’s nothing “wrong” with folk music. It’s simply a different animal from non-folk music, and all societies cultivate both.
The point proves itself actually. No one outside Spain will recognize the names of any of the Spanish folk-forms you mention. Yet few humans have not heard of “flamenco”.
This was not ordained by a B.O.E.
, but rather came about spontaneously and can only be attributed to the nature of the music itself.
associated with a tradition which is not theirs.
Chauvinism is one of the less admirable human impulses.
I am not a flamenco dancer, I am a flamenco singer, and a “polka dress” is not the same thing as a “polkadot dress”. Your extreme hostility towards flamenco exceeds your familiarity with the art form.
our unity, not a factor contributing to it.
That’s an outdated mantra. Now, flamenco is going through a tremendous global boom, every autonomous community in Spain is gleefully rushing to get a piece of the pie, and Catalonia was the first in line. In the end, cultural concerns are outweighed by commercial ones, ley de vida.
on January 4th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Yeah, I m with Estela here. We ve obviously found one Spaniard who hates flamenco but I m convinced that Carlos is part of a pretty small minority. A brief bit of Google research finds a tiny number (149 entries, including duplicates) of Spaniards declaring hatred for Flamenco.
The dislike for flamenco seems to take two standard forms: (i) teenagers who say they hate flamenco because they see it as the music of their parents. Generally, these kids grow up. and (ii) People who see flamenco as gipsy and not Spanish a nicely ethno-nationalist agenda being displayed.
One imagines that the same people refuse to eat moorish turrones. on January 4th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
Estela, I like your style, but it does not make your statements more true to fact.
I appreciate your reasoning and your respectful manner, and the time you have taken to try to refute my claims methodically and defend what is obviously your life’s devotion.
As regards the distinction between “música de uso” and “stylised and individualised art forms,” allow me to say that it is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be, no matter how many experts may claim otherwise. Isn’t clapping and guitar playing participative? People may not be doing the same thing, but they are all participating.
Did the folks first dancing and singing flamenco need an audience? Did it not reinforce their sense of identity more than anything else? Aren’t the folk dances and kinds of music I mentioned in a previous post mostly performed for an audience nowadays?
Haven’t they become standandised and stylised? How can you claim that dancing sardanas in public is more artificial than singing flamenco on a stage. Haven t they both been detached from their original contexts and functions in a very similar way?
OK, may be it happened to sardanas etc. at a later time in history, but would that really be so relevant?
Sorry about the “tantrum” metaphor.
I’m guilty as claimed: I know very little about flamenco beyond my occasional exposure to it through the media. I hope I will not offend anyone if I say that I’m little inclined to change this situation. I would rather explore Galician and Castilian traditions first, as they are the two connected to my origins.
And, yes, sorry for my faulty English. It was a lapse: I know polka and polka dots are not the same thing. However, English is not my first language, and you knew perfectly well what I meant.
Who was being just a tad Chauvinistic by making such a fussy correction? Perhaps we should continue this debate in Spanish, and I would perhaps be the one Chauvinistically correcting the (no doubt few and unimportant) mistakes with which you might blemish my mother tongue.
I’m not hostile to flamenco.
I’m hostile towards the perception that flamenco is all there is to Spanish (I insist) folk music. The fact that I personally do not find it pleasant, does not mean that I do not respect it.
I reject your accusations of Chauvinism: vindicating one’s identity, and the identity of one’s land does not imply despising that of others.
In the same way that claiming that I am, say, black, would not imply despising white people or feeling superior to them.
As far as the purposeful promotion of Andalusia and its culture abroad as the epitome of Spanishness, I have friends who have specialised in the field of tourism at university, so I can get you some bibliography if you want…
Just a final remark: with flamenco being so global as you claim, wouldn t you feel more comfortable with it being regarded as a universal artform rather than just a Spanish one. Perhaps that would bring our debate to a happy conclusion.
on January 5th, 2007 at 7:35 pm
1 - I am not, as I mentioned above, particularly well educated in music, so I will refrain from commenting on the technicalities;
2 - it is a great pleasure to read such an animated discussion between people who do know so much about this topic, even if they have different views;
3 - as regards your English, I commend you both: it is excellent. No one needs to apologise or criticise. I am a linguist and have been learning and teaching languages for years.
A large number of English people would be hard pushed to construct many of the phrases you have used in your arguments. If you send me your emails and would like to work on things like that, I would happily add you to a translators database I am creating for our new company.
I would agree with what s been said about the use of stereotypical icons to promote Spain - it s a big commercial opportunity and at the same time has lots of potential for reinforcing cultural stereotypes which don t perhaps represent the whole country.
Still, the more we discuss these things, the more we all know. on January 5th, 2007 at 8:29 pm
Did the folks first dancing and singing flamenco need an audience?
Of course not, that’s why early flamenco was folk music.
That era ended around 1860, although a few forms still exist in both their folk and flamenco forms, most notably verdiales whose folk form is far more popular now than its flamenco form.
a previous post mostly performed for an audience nowadays?
Folk music can and is performed for an audience, like the sardanas I mentioned.
It’s still folk music, it’s static, does not evolve and does not lend itself to individual interpretation. In fact the precise reproduction of historic music, dance and song is what is most highly prized in folk music, and there is little or no room for improvisation.
is more artificial than singing flamenco on a stage.
The dance is not artificial, the concept is. “Come and see the simple peasants doing their traditional dances”. Nothing wrong with that, it just requires temporary suspension of disbelief.
However, English is not my first language, and you knew
perfectly well what I meant. Who was being just a tad Chauvinistic
by making such a fussy correction?
My mind-reading is rusty, but it wasn’t a correction, merely an indication of your lack of familiarity with flamenco which you yourself proclaim in your last message.
In order to be chauvinistic, I’d have to promote Frank Sinatra’s “New York, New York” that’s where I’m from and grew up instead of flamenco, which is your own country s music.
Perhaps we should continue this debate in Spanish, and I
might blemish my mother tongue.
Podemos seguir en castellano si lo deseas, soy Premio Nacional al Periodismo Flamenco y no puedo permitirme el lujo de cometer errores.
También soy redactora de una revista electrónica en castellano, y me paso el día corrigiendo los errores (haber si me eplico) de tus paisanos.
I’m not hostile to flamenco. I’m hostile towards the
folk music.
“Insistence” upon untruths does not turn them into truths. If you don’t want to take the word of the people I cited in a previous message, who are the highest authorities in the field, I can give you a dozen or so more. Spain’s best-known autochthonous music is clearly flamenco.
A very distant second is sevillanas, but most foreigners take to it because they think it’s flamenco. Sevillanas, needless to say, is also from Andalusia.
abroad as the epitome of Spanishness, I have friends who have
specialised in the field of tourism at university, so I can get you
First came the fascination, then came the promotion to squeeze $$$ out of it.
Like water seeking its own level, these things generate spontaneously in a free marketplace. Even Catalonia embraced flamenco after ’92 (Ojos de Brujo, Poveda and others have greatly enhanced the image) .you know the expression, “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em”.
Just a final remark: with flamenco being so global as you claim,
universal artform rather than just a Spanish one. Perhaps that
would bring our debate to a happy conclusion.
Flamenco coalesced in Spain from a diversity of outside influences, that’s a historical fact no one can change.
The interpreters come from all over the world, and that makes it global. I’m happy. Aren’t you happy?
on January 6th, 2007 at 4:53 am
“Hmm… well, I live in Catalonia, my wife and her family are Catalan and their best family friends are from Navarra. None of them hates Flamenco - probably because it’s good music. What this comes down to is not just taste but artistic merit.
”
Well, I live in Galicia, I can count at least 5 pipers among my acquaintances and there isn’t a single “tablao” around here that I’m aware of. Most people here are much more likely to have been to a performance by Susana Seivane, Cristina Pato, Carlos Nuñez, Berrogüeto or Milladoiro (to name just a few) than to a “tablao.” IT IS all a matter of TASTE combined with emotional affinity.
There is a large Andalusian community in Catalonia, which is not the case here. Barcelona is a cosmopolitan city likely to home all kinds of cultural manifestations, which does not make them more autochthonous, nor universally popular. As far as the rest of Spain (with the exception of Andalusia and adjacent areas, Madrid and possibly other big cities), the situation with flamenco resembles that of Galicia.
“You betray a lot with your words “that loud, overemotional expression of raw feelings”. To me, that sounds like a rather stuffy attitude. Flamenco’s about passion and yes it can be rather flamboyant… but compare it to the dirge-like Sardana, for example, and it’s not hard to see why it has become so popular around the world.
Visca el flamenc!”
Call me stuffy if you like, but I dare you to try confessing to your Catalan friends and acquaintances what your opinion of sardana is in contrast with “wonderful, passionate” flamenco and see what kind of reactions you get.
“Yeah, I m with Estela here.
We ve obviously found one Spaniard who hates flamenco but I m convinced that Carlos is part of a pretty small minority. A brief bit of Google research finds a tiny number (149 entries, including duplicates) of Spaniards declaring hatred for Flamenco.
I hoped I had made it sufficiently clear that rather than hating flamenco per se I hate the perception that it is the ultimate expression of Spain’s soul(whatever that is).
Anyway, “flamenco-haters” are not so small a minority. What’s more, a majority of Spaniards would probably respond affirmatively if instead of “do you hate flamenco” they were asked “would you agree with the statement ‘I care little for flamenco’?” or “would you agree with the statement ‘flamenco is not autochthonous to where I live’”?
The dislike for flamenco seems to take two standard forms: (i) teenagers who say they hate flamenco because they see it as the music of their parents. Generally, these kids grow up. and (ii) People who see flamenco as gipsy and not Spanish a nicely ethno-nationalist agenda being displayed.
One imagines that the same people refuse to eat moorish turrones.”
Mr. Clarke, I cannot but bow before your impeccable use of logical thinking here.
All along I had fancied myself as a mature individual who abhors racism, figure that! That was before you showed me the light, amazing grace! I especially liked your comment on the turrón , now I know why my next-door neighbour, the ugly skinhead, refuses to eat it.
If you aren’t already a renowned sociologist, please, make sure you get your thoughts published. It would be a pity if your fascinating insights were lost to the world.
Allow me now to have a little go at your line of reasoning: I once stayed in a manor house in Berkshire, were the owners used to go fox hunting, as well as all their friends.
I infer from that that all English people love fox-hunting. What’s more, after prolonged research in the Internet I have come to the following conclusions about those who don’t. They can be grouped into two neat categories: (i) vegans, who only eat carrots, are dismally undernourished, have a total disregard for the meat-eating traditions of their ancestors and, therefore, need to wise up.
(ii) People who were traumatised in their early youth by reading too many of Beatrice Potter’s tales.
“Podemos seguir en castellano si lo deseas, soy Premio Nacional al Periodismo Flamenco y no puedo permitirme el lujo de cometer errores. También soy redactora de una revista electrónica en castellano, y me paso el día corrigiendo los errores (haber si me explico) de tus paisanos.
”
Estela, te felicito por tus logros y tu excelente castellano. Ahora me toca ser un auténtico repugnante: “a ver si me explico” and not “haber si me explico.” It is a very common mistake.
And, yes, I still think that expecting foreigners to speak your language to perfection is just a wee bit Chauvinistic. I had gathered already that you were an Italian-American, but thank you anyway for the explanation. By the way, I love Frank Sinatra (oops, have I offended anyone s sensibilities?
)
“Insistence” upon untruths does not turn them into truths. If you don’t want to take the word of the people I cited in a previous message, who are the highest authorities in the field, I can give you a dozen or so more. Spain’s best-known autochthonous music is clearly flamenco.
A very distant second is sevillanas, but most foreigners take to it because they think it’s flamenco. Sevillanas, needless to say, is also from Andalusia.”
And the highest authorities in the field will, very predictably, extol the virtues and importance of the beloved object of their studies, which does not make them exactly impartial (or does it?
). That is part of their job, after all… Yes, I indeed agree with you that flamenco is Spain’s best-known autochthonous music, followed closely by sevillanas and that they both originated from Andalusia. But then again, the limitations of human knowledge would be partly to blame for the fact that the wider reality of Spain is not better known.
First came the fascination, then came the promotion to squeeze $$$ out of it. Like water seeking its own level, these things generate spontaneously in a free marketplace. Even Catalonia embraced flamenco after ’92 (Ojos de Brujo, Poveda and others have greatly enhanced the image)….
you know the expression, “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em”.
Fine, so many people are fascinated, I don’t doubt it… and then the old adagio “€€€ (ha, ha)makes the world go round. Yes, such is life.
As for the expression “If you can’t beat them, join them”, I am really stubborn, in case you have not noticed. I never surrender. OK, may be one day I’ll go to Barcelona and watch a “sarao”, you know, as they say, you must know your enemy well before you can beat them.
Or may be not, lest I’m irremediably seduced… (the only thing that would surprise me about life is if life didn’t surprise me.)
“Flamenco coalesced in Spain from a diversity of outside influences, that’s a historical fact no one can change. The interpreters come from all over the world, and that makes it global.
I’m happy. Aren’t you happy?”
Yes, I am, really happy.
And I thank you for this interesting discussion. May be I have helped you realise that there is still of a lot of unconquered territory in Spain… Fancy that! Me helping you to “get to know your enemy better” and to spread flamenco in Spain even more.
What a nightmare!!!
!!!
(said half in jest).
And, Matthew, thank you for your comments… I am a bit of a lone wolf, but sometimes it helps having some company. I lived in Britain for a while and I really found it wearisome when people came up to me expecting me to conform to all those stereotypes about Spain (oh, please, not again!
). I ended up giving up totally and introducing myself with the line: “Hi, I’m Carlos. I’m Spanish and, of course, I am from Barcelona (although, surprisingly,I m not a waiter), my mother was a flamenco dancer and my father a matador.
on January 6th, 2007 at 11:55 am
castellano. Ahora me toca ser un auténtico repugnante:
De repugnante, nada, deficiente sentido del humor, eso es todo. Vuelve a leer mis palabras:
Por arrogante que suene, no cometo errores de ortografía ni de gramática, y los tipográficos también se eliminan con un repaso antes de publicar – mi trabajo depende de ello.
Lo que sí me está costando tela es relacionar estos hechos con la charla actual. Ídem, la procedencia de mi familia, que casualmente no incluye ningún hilo mediterráneo.
bit Chauvinistic.
After reviewing the complete text of this conversation, and being unable to find anything written by me that says or implies I “expect foreigners to speak my language to perfection”, I have to conclude there is no need to address the issue.
And the highest authorities in the field will,
very predictably, extol the virtues and importance
of the beloved object of their studies, which
does not make them exactly impartial (or does it?).
That is part of their job, after all…
Forgive me for not being clear. I was not talking about authorities on flamenco, but in the field of ethnomusicology, which deals with every sort of music on the planet. These people are scientists, in the most literal sense of the word, closer to anthropologists than anything else.
Nor did I say they “extol the virtues” of flamenco. If you go over the context, I referred you to ethnomusicology to make clear the definition of “folk music”.
Yes, I indeed agree with you that flamenco is
from Andalusia.
But then again, the limitations of
fact that the wider reality of Spain is not better known.
“Followed closely by sevillanas” is the opposite of what I said, look:
A very distant second is sevillanas.
You implied that flamenco is known all over the world because of artificial forces, or an insidious campaign to promote it.
Could not the same thing be done for the sardana?
Fancy that! Me helping you to “get to know
I’m baffled by talk of “enemies” and “unconquered territory”.
If you ever visit the web I work for (deflamenco.com), you’ll see I spend a great deal of virtual ink pleading for a scaling-back, a reordering of priorities and a warning that “more” is not necessarily positive, and may even turn out to be “less”.
me to conform to all those stereotypes about Spain.
When I tell your people I’m from New York, they occasionally ask if it’s true everyone carries an umbrella. Don’t blame music, blame cultural ignorance.
on January 6th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
De repugnante, nada, deficiente sentido del humor, eso es todo.
Vuelve a leer mis palabras:
No, no me parece oquei (ay, ay, ay: esos anglicismos tan innecesarios ), ni siquiera me parece bien. Pero existe una diferencia entre resbalársele a uno una tecla y utilizar una construcción entera que, además, es un error harto común.
Have to go now.
But I ll be back! I m not sure if it is a promise or a threat (oops, sorry, my deficiente sentido del humor at work again!)
on January 6th, 2007 at 8:58 pm
It s no fun explaining jokes, but one more try:
me paso el día corrigiendo los errores (haber si me eplico) de tus paisanos.
That s me tweaking the nose of all the Spaniards, tus paisanos , who write haber for a ver , leave out the letter s or d , confuse haya with halla , fail to use accents, and a very long list of etcéteras. In addition to writing, I get paid to clean all that stuff up. Some of our most brilliant contributors have the most deplorable written Spanish.
Me paresió dibertío, te pío diculpas :-(
on January 7th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
My apologies too for being so slow on the uptake! The penny has finally dropped.
You see, the disadvantages of written communication, without the support of the paralinguistic elements of speech: tone of voice, gestures, posture.
Anyway, I m getting too pedantic here. I have never been too adept with emoticons either
Some of our most brilliant contributors have the most deplorable written Spanish.
I do believe you Intelligence has little to do with spelling.
Ehpero que te hallan traio musho regaloh. A mi si por que e sio bueno.
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